I don't know half of you half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
If you had a friend whose husband cheated on her more than once, then drug her (the friend's) name through the mud complete with public humiliation, would you suggest to that friend that it would be a good idea for her to stay with that man? Moreso if she decided to stay with said womanizing man would you describe that as a sign of strength in that woman? Evidentially somewhere along the line our country has decided that staying with such a man indicates strength.
My first reaction to hearing that a poll would indicate this would be shock, because quite frankly people leave each other for all kinds of reasons these days, but the number one reason that seems to still be held high above all others is infidelity. It's not just Biblical, it's universal. If the man or woman commits such an act that gives the other party free reign for divorce, and while forgiveness can be had, when the actions are repeated over and over again I would have thought the general consensus would have been that the woman was being weak if she stayed and strong if she left the man.
A recent poll showed that 56% of Americans think that Hillary Clinton's decision to stand by President Bill Clinton during the Monica Lewinsky affair was a sign of strength. Only 20% said that it was a weakness. Now I know our morals are a bit skewed but this goes against most normal rational thought. I looked a bit deeper into the poll numbers and it gets more shocking. I might have expected to see a majority of men saying it was a strength, because after all men are all womanizing pigs and we would want our woman to stand by us and sure enough 50% of men considered it a strength. What's more crazy though is that 62% of women agreed that it was a strength as well. I thought women got together and agreed about such things calling men like this pigs and saying that "you're too good for him and you should do the strong thing and get out now."
It didn't even fall down party lines as much as I thought it would. Sure almost no democrats saw it as a weakness, but more republicans saw it as a strength than as a weakness. Even the majority of people who go to church more than once a month saw it as a strength.
Did I miss something in what makes a woman strong? I thought that picking yourself up by the bootstraps and doing the right thing despite what it might do to you politically might be a better indication of strength than playing this game with your life so that you can get elected. Hillary Clinton is one of the weakest women in America in my biased opinion, and while she's one of the most powerful that doesn't mean that she should have earned any respect for that power. My oh my is our country in for a wake up call.
In all honesty, I'd suggest that their marriage is more a formality more than anything else... consider this.
Divorcing a then-President would have probably personally devastated her, since she was reliant on his income, power, etc.
After Slick Willy's terms ended and thoughts (in her mind, I'm sure) of her own politic rise materialized, divorcing the man still popular with democrats as their golden-boy would have been suicide in every sense of the word.
So, IMHO, not divorcing bill was a very calculated, self-promoting (daresay I coattail-ish) decision.
I agree, but how is it a sign of strength?
perhaps its considered a strength because most people consider "backing down" (in this case, divorce)a weakness. Consider just a minor thing, such as in a public school, backing down from a fight automatically puts you, in most eyes, as a wimp. That thought transfers into other circumstances, hence the poll.
Just a thought.
If he weren't President, I probably would have dumped the dude, but for career and image purposes, it was a better option to stay together. I think in a way it constitutes strength because of the forgiveness factor and her determination not to let it hurt her permanently (and she seems to be doing quite well, though I don't understand why she's running for President...she's too polarizing to win).
Obama won't win either - white "I'm-liberal" people pretend to like him because he's "black," white "I hate blacks" people hate him because he's "black," black people hate him because he's half white. And occasionally the lack of political experience comes into play too. Of course I think he's a brilliant guy, but I don't think he'd be a good president for our nation, right now. Maybe later. But right now, we need someone a bit more moderate.
Lastly, I think it's far from "universal" to assume that adultery is bad. In our culture and other dominantly Christian nations that's probably the case, but there are probably tons of small tribes that view adultery as the norm. Of course, this is a whole nother story. Just wanted to comment on the universality aspect.
The strength thing is freaky since in counseling terms she would be called an "Enabler" Like a woman who stays with an abusive alcoholic. (Or man as some cases may allow) An enabler "allows" such behavior. By staying with such a man he is allowed to continue to "Have his cake and eat it too" The Bible says that anyone who is married to an adulterer is allowed to get a divorce. This is the only case divorce is provided for in the book of Matthew in the new testament. So as a Pastor's wife if I had to deal with such a woman, I would recommend that she be separated until he concedes to get help. A repeat offender in this area is showing signs of a serious addiction...not to mention clear marital problems. All this said if the said man shows no sign of repentance, true repentance (Trust is key and I know trust was broken many times over.) If there is no sign of wanting to change than yes it is in the woman's best interest to divorce the man who is eating as much cake as he possibly can and still have it at home to!! However, the wife must NOT get remarried because in Matthew if she does, she will also be in the same sin as her husband. Now on to the infamous afore mentioned President and presidential candidate. She is not stronger because she stayed with him she is smart. It does not look good for a Pres. candidate to be divorced...we learned that from the first two season's of 24 and the repercussions were still felt in season 3. In her case it's all politics in the rest of the world it is stupidity and fear of the unknown!
The enablement stuff you were talking about was what I was trying to get at.
I never denied her being smart to stay with him, however being smart for political gain doesn't mean she was being strong.
yes the enablement stuff is what you were getting at (LOL) and I know she's not strong. The strong do do not have to attack the way she has in the past.. She can be violent at times. That is weak. Violence is weak in most cases. Christ is the ultimate in that. His strength did not lie in brute power but in that He was God. His power was in His silence. Most of the time when we would have blasted the people who were giving Christ a hard time, he said nothing at all. Satan is smart but not all-powerful, no I am not linking Mrs. Clinton with satan though............Anyway I was just saying playing the game well doesn't mean you're the strongest player!
In other words I don't think she's strong in the slightest! I was agreeing with you!
indeed
To comment on what "Sis" said - is adultery really the only allowable cause for divorce? What about cruelty or abuse? I'd like to think the Bible allows for something so damaging, physically and psychologically, as abuse (sexual, verbal, violent, etc).
(There should be a comma between "psychologically" and "as")
Going back to what Debbie was saying-
Morality is not based on social norms- even the most convoluted philosophers who still hold on to basic human rights assert that morals are a derivative of those basic "inalienable" rights. Looking at morality based on social norms is a form of relativism- not something spoken lightly of in the Bible. The whole when "men call good evil, and evil good".
Another thing that really gets on my nerves...
I don't dislike Obama... A lot of what he has to offer isn't too bad. I don't agree wholly with him... However, seemingly 99% of his opposition are blacks. They are making racism an issue by calling him not "black enough" and not taking stands on black issues.
The only reason why racism exists for the most part today is because people make it exist. Read this article and you'll see what I mean:
Last Sunday's D&C front page article... Why not the Daytona 500?
As for the divorce question: Christ is dealing with moral absolutes in Matt. He even attests to the use of divorce in the Old Testament with Moses because of the imperfection and sin of the people. It is never God's desire that divorce take place, Marriage is a sacred institution. On the other hand people are imperfect and for safety, morality, and other extreme reasons separation and possibly divorce may be necessary. It is however not RIGHT. Divorce is not taught in the Bible however it is regretfully allowed. Either way divorce or no divorce marriage is a bond that cannot easily be broken in the eyes of God.
As for Strength: Strength should be based on standing for what is RIGHT. This will be different in circumstances. If one is enabling immorality then they are not exhibiting strength. If one is leaving a situation rather than putting in the effort necessary to make it work then they are not exhibiting strength. In this case by not standing against Clinton's sin Hillary was covering over what was right for her own benefit, not being strong. As far as divorce and strength I believe it could go either way depending on the situation. I think the poll is an accurate picture of a society that is more interested in their own expediency rather than what is truly right which is often difficult.
You have no idea how hard it is to stay married to a man that cheats. Yes, you have "permission" to divorce in cases of infidelity, but God hates divorce and does not want it. I have been through a chronically cheating spouse and prayed about what to do because I was at risk of disease and death. God told me to stay, that I would go through it again, but that we would eventually have victory over it. I did not tolerate the behavior, but I did stay. And I did go through it again. And it was bad. It was painful. It destroyed for a time my whole world and self-worth. But God restores what the locusts destroy!
Yes, I was afraid to be on my own by leaving him, but its more difficult to stay and not know if he will keep cheating. It does take strength. But God's strength is the only one that can get you through in one piece.
In the end, there is freedom. And there is God's glory! And there is Victory! And an intact marraige and family. And a ministry to others who go through this.
IF this ever happened to me again, yes, my marraige would be over. But I know that God is bigger than all of this, and I believe Him when He told me that we would have victory. We are almost ready to start being a ministry for others in this area.
I am disgusted by the Clintons, but I have to say that Bill is probably a porn/sex addict and he needs help and prayer. I'm sure he doesn't enjoy living like that. There is an awesome counsellor for that in Colorado, I know, we went to him!
I hope that my post will put a different view on this for you. I struggled so much with my choices because I didn't want my girls thinking a husband can treat them like that and you have to take it, and I didn't want my sons thinking they can treat their wives that way. But my boys say they would have had less respect for me if I had left and not tried to make it work. We teach them that God can answer our prayers and can save us from our sins, and then to just abandon someone instead of fighting for them? Well, they didn't think that would be a good example. I'm glad I stayed and fought and let God work His miracles on my husband and family. And I am glad we went through it! I wish I hadn't had the pain, but I learned a lot about myself, God, others, that I would never want to miss out on.
Women are like teabags, you don't know how strong they are until you put them in hot water.
I'm glad you posted, a different perspective is one of the reasons I enjoy making posts on this site.
I do want to note and I'm not sure it totally came out in the telling of my post is that especially in the case of the Clintons it showed a lack of strength and more of a willingness to enable and a willingness to put her own political path above that which would be good for the family and I see this as weakness.
Those that are able to overcome, stick with, for the better of their family can show incredible strength, I don't think that's what Hillary showed however.